Matthew Roth: There’s a rumor out of TriStar going around right now that if the knee surgery doesn’t go well, St. Pierre could retire. If Georges St. Pierre was to retire tonight, what is his legacy? Is he the best welterweight to ever live or does the fact that he never faced Nick Diaz or Carlos Condit open up the discussion that he was just a really good fighter that utilized wrestling to win rounds?
Fraser Coffeen: Diaz and Condit are the arguments against his legacy? No way. Those are fun potential match-ups, and I’ll be sad if we never get GSP vs. Diaz, but St. Pierre has nothing to prove by beating them. Best Welterweight of all time? It’s him or Hughes, undeniably. Do people think his failure to finish counts against him here?
Josh Nason: I think his legacy is one of the best fighters of the modern era (2005-on) and an interesting case for where he would fit in the Top 10 best of all-time. The Diaz fight would be a great topper and a bummer if it doesn’t happen, but it’s not a make-or-break for his career.
The one thing that may hurt his standing with some is the lack of finishes. He did put a hurting on a lot of guys in a row and didn’t lose a round in years, which the educated understand. But he wasn’t an overly violent guy in a violent sport (think Chuck Liddell highlight finishes), nor an outlandish personality. He’d be appreciated by the masses but not beloved to the point of Randy Couture…except in Canada, that is.
KJ Gould: I think if he’s forced to retire, his legacy was never fully realised. He never took fights in other weight classes — something both Silva and Penn have done — and his inability to finish in his last string of fights has caused all sorts of criticism, particularly when some of his former opponents were finished handily the next time they stepped foot in the cage. The dynamic fighter that built his reputation and fanbase seemed absent in recent fights either due to a lack of refinement in technique, or a lack of urgency and willingness to take any risk in the process.
GSP is / was absolutely a very good fighter and the best of his division for the last few years, but in Boxing so was Joe Calzaghe — and neither guy was able to set the world on fire. If GSP was Welsh he wouldn’t be the draw that he is, even if everything else about him stayed the same. GSP will be surpassed in years to come by more dynamic, destructive fighters because that’s what the majority of full contact combat sport fans look for and are drawn to.
If GSP beat Diaz and Condit the same way he’s been beating recent opponents, his legacy is unchanged because there’d be nothing remarkable about it.
Continued after the jump…
Fraser Coffeen: Josh’s mention of Chuck made me think about one upside to his legacy should he retire now, which is that he won’t linger past his prime. So many great champions have that awful losing streak to end their careers – Fedor, Chuck, Tito, Wanderlei, Hughes. We end up, to some degree, allowing those late career loses to influence our views of their entire career. Just look at this very question – Hughes should absolutely be considered alongside GSP, but it’s kind of hard to forget the image of Alves crushing him, Penn KO’ing him, Hughes screaming as GSP hits the armbar. For now, those are more dominant images in some minds, when it should be Hughes choking out Trigg, crucifixing Newton…GSP retires now, and he avoids that and retires as the unbeaten champion, which is a big deal.
KJ Gould: I think GSP is at least couple of years away from being in a similar situation, and the real shame is a serious injury as sidelined him rather than taking too many in-bout beatings. I can fully appreciate a little bit of conservatism for pro fighters to lengthen their careers, I just think GSP has been too conservative in recent fights which end up lacking that WOW factor. I just wish when it became clear early in a fight that his opponent has nothing for him, then that would be the time for him to do something astonishing since he certainly has the skill and ability to do so. Fighters transcend when they rise to a challenge and overcome, but if a challenge isn’t there then I feel a champion’s supremacy needs to be punctuated with an exclaimation point, rather than just murmured. Instead GSP’s legacy for me is marred by being risk averse and it comes down to the old adage, “No Guts, No Glory“.
Josh Nason: I can’t sign off on the ‘no guts’ for GSP remark. Last night, I thought about this subject more and wanted to mention that his competitive drive is something to be admired. He wasn’t a wrestler and learned it so well there was the Canadian Olympic team rumors being thrown around. He cross-trains to a ridiculous end and he simply wants to win, win and win. That’s something I’ve always loved about his approach. I did an interview with Phil Nurse a few months ago and he reiterated what a competitive guy GSP is, even from the day he first met him/ I think he’ll be back at a high-level and will continue to be an upper echelon fighter for a few more years.
KJ Gould: I don’t see hard work and dedication as the same thing as ‘guts’ when it comes to fighting. GSP absolutely is hard working and dedicated and constantly looking to improve. ‘Guts’ for me is a different character trait that relates to risk taking, killer instinct, gritty endurance and choosing Fight over Flight when in a survival situation. I think fighting with reckless abandon and throwing caution to the wind is a bad idea; I just think GSP has gone too far to the other end of the spectrum. Fighters with a good balance of skill and strategy coupled with that animalistic, mean streak is what interests me the most about fighting and GSP has just lacked that in recent fights. Nick Diaz and Carlos Condit possess this balance (though admittedly it might not be a completely equal balance), and as a result I’m far more interested in them fighting for the interim title than I would be with either against GSP. Since we’re still talking about a fight at the end of the day, I do think it can impact that legacy far more than other, non-combative sports.
Ben Thapa: Are you people insane? Look at who Georges St-Pierre has beat in his career. He’s already a legend in the sport and will go down as being better than Matt Hughes. In an era of beastly wrestleboxers, GSP has decisively beaten every challenger since the first bout with Matt Serra. GSP beat everyone put in front of him and a good chunk of them are better than Hughes ever was. If we magically could rewrite time without GSP, Jon Fitch would likely be ruling the division with an iron fist. Fitch is a truly diverse mixed martial artist who cannot be put away and has the chops to implement his will on just about everybody else at welterweight. In the real world, Fitch is looking on the outside while fresher talent bubbles up and hype gets built.
A mean streak is not necessary to great success in any sport. Marcelo Garcia is perhaps the nicest human being alive and he wins durn near every grappling tournament he enters. Kevin Durant is an all-world talent and his teammates and people in Oklahoma rave about his approachability and personality. A mean streak makes it easier to sell a person to the masses, but being vicious is not a surefire path to great success. There probably isn’t a more vicious person in the ring or cage than Wanderlei Silva and he never quite lived up to his legend. To win, all GSP has to do is to be better than the other fighter within the rules of the fight. In the face of some stiff challenges, he’s done that time and again. He’s given of his time, body and spirit to put on amazing performances against some of the best mixed martial artists we’ve yet seen. Perhaps the bout with Anderson Silver never materializes, perhaps he retires in the next year a well-compensated, but hobbled fighter, but his legend is already secure as one of the best mixed martial artists and one of the most respected and loved combat sports athlete ever.
Matthew Roth: Ben you bring up his legend. But what exactly is his legend? A fighter who won one-sided dull decisions? A fighter who was once exciting until suffering the only knockout of his career? St. Pierre is a talented guy and has dominated everyone he’s faced insofar as he has the ability to keep the fight on the ground. But even when he had Koscheck broken, he never went for the kill. He was content with riding out a decision. While fans may disagree, it’s a bad look when Jake Ellenberger and Chris Lytle finish guys that GSP decisioned.
Back to the original point though. The lack of the Diaz and Condit fights will loom over his head. Fans truly believe without the UFC’s marketing machine that Condit and Diaz could actually beat St. Pierre because they are dangerous on the feet and ground. They truly are well-rounded and have that mean streak to finish the fight when they have their opponent hurt.
Dallas Winston: Wow, it’s crazy to think about him retiring at this point.
I’ve always liked and respected GSP, especially because he plays the “aw shucks”, sheepish nice guy so well. When he trolled Koscheck on TUF into picking Marc Stevens first and whispered, “It’s a strategy!” while trying to be all stealthy and inconspicuous — I don’t know why, but I burst into laughter and still do when I recall that. He almost seems to have the utterly disarming charm of a little kid with grown-ass man MMA skills.
Anyway, I think being this close to fighting Diaz on two separate occasions will dull the luster a little on his legacy. Diaz represents so many things that GSP hasn’t encountered and might struggle with: equal reach length, an impenetrable chin, an innate desire for a down and dirty brawl and elite submission skills. The last one might be the most salient. Hughes and Penn were the only apex submission fighters he faced, and Hughes caught him once and I think Diaz is significantly more proven and effective off his back than Penn.
I really have no problem with GSP’s lack of finishing though I understand why others do. I thought he started to really excel as a complete fighter and come into his own about the same time he went on the decision streak. His footwork, jab and overall kickboxing skills seemed to become just as formidable as his wrestling, which is the best in the world at 170. I suspect his offensive submission game is somewhat mediocre, as evinced against white-belt Dan Hardy, but that’s another aspect I was looking forward to seeing more of and how he’s developed it.
Dallas Winston: My opinion on Roth’s question is that GSP’s legacy was isolating himself as a rising phenom and handling Matt Hughes before getting caught in their first fight. Then, he established his freakish wrestling prowess by dominating Sherk, Trigg, Hughes twice (both finishes) and Koscheck.
That’s what I’ll always remember him for. However, I would never put GSP on the same level legacy-wise as someone like Anderson Silva, who has annihilated everyone in the UFC. GSP has two legit losses to Hughes and Serra — the latter interrupting his surging momentum — that elevate Anderson into a different category.
KJ Gould: Ben, guts and instinct aren’t necessary for success. It just makes that success more poignant. Plus I don’t find the Marcelo Garcia reference apt, because Garcia is a finisher even at the highest level. All but one match of his at this year’s ADCC was finished, where as Pablo Popovitch took dull decision after dull decision. Garcia gutting out a guillotine from Kron Gracie isn’t something that can be likened to GSP; Popovitch insta-tapping to Andre Galvao’s toehold can be if you think about GSP tapping to strikes. These aren’t perfect comparisons by any means, but more on point than your original reference in my opinion.
As I said, GSP’s recent dominance is more of a murmur than an exclamation point. It’s why I think he’ll probably be the most successful Welterweight there’s been, but he’s not that deserving of any greater accolade. He is eclipsed by Anderson Silva, and I think Jon Jones from a purely fighting standpoint could be on his way to eclipse him if he continues to run through opponents in devastating fashion.